How to Build Wealth Without Using Your Credit

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What’s the secret to building wealth and a fulfilling life?

For Ron LeGrand, the answer is as simple as systemizing real estate investing and embracing the power of teaching.

Ron shares his decades of real estate wisdom, market cycles, and the art of creating passive income. How to adapt to market shifts, build wealth through "terms deals," and avoid the pitfalls of following the wrong mentors.

WHAT TO LISTEN FOR
1:33 – Ron LeGrand’s humble beginnings in real estate
10:22 – Delegation: The key to scaling your business
19:57 – Building a business that can weather any storm
25:17 – How Ron structures profitable "terms deals"


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Chapters

• 1:33 Ron LeGrand’s humble beginnings in real estate
• 10:22 Delegation: The key to scaling your business
• 19:57 Building a business that can weather any storm
• 25:17 How Ron structures profitable "terms deals"

Transcript

Ron LeGrand (00:00):

That experience was only came by, you have to rent it from others until you get it.

Announcer (00:08):

This is the Self Storage Podcast with the original Self storage expert, Scott Meyers.

Scott Meyers (00:16):

Hello everyone and welcome back to the Self Storage Podcast. I'm your host at Scott Meyers and what we're doing today is that we're continuing on in a series of talking with the folks that are not only the gurus but the gurus in the business, if you will, and maybe taking a peek behind the curtains and taking a look at some of the reasons why some of the folks that have been investing for a number of years and teaching alongside of it, why they continue to do both and how they got started in at the first place. And so we have arguably a man who needs no introduction when it comes to the folks that are at the top level of educating people. This guy is a legend and I owe most of my investing expertise to the gentleman that I'm about to interview right now. And again, he needs no introduction. Mr. Ron LeGrand. Ron, welcome to the show.

Ron LeGrand (01:03):

Thank you. Pleasure to be

Scott Meyers (01:04):

Here. Well, Ron, I've interviewed a couple other folks that recently that are doing just that teaching as well as investing in real estate in various forms and fashions, not just self storage and not just a commercial but different areas. So I guess I wanted to start by asking the reason why you got started teaching people how to invest in real estate versus just continuing to be a guru versus a guru.

Ron LeGrand (01:33):

Well, I started back in 1982, which was a century ago, and I started because I liked to eat regularly

(01:43):

And I didn't like work six to seven hours, I mean six to seven days a week and it went, it was about seven years, no, five years went by and I didn't do any teaching. I never dreamed I'd be teaching when I started crying out loud. I'm just looking for the next check and I was a president of my local arena group about two years after I came out of my first seminar and of course part of our group, we always talked about deals, everybody brought deals that they had done. Of course, I was on there about every week, so I got tired of answering the same questions a hundred times. Scheduled my first seminar back in 1987 and it was free and the room was full and I said that was kind of fun. Lemme do that again. Only this time done charge. Now the room was only 25% full. Big difference, but that's what started me frankly. I just started creating courses and I first started teaching on Robert Allen and Marco Harrelson's conventions. We did them once or twice a year and that was the beginning in 1991. I started actually in 87, I created my first course in 91. I created my first bootcamp and we've been doing them since, geez, that was a lot of houses ago.

(03:04):

Back when I started the prime rate it was 16.8%. So I hear all these people bawling about the interest rates out here right now. I said, man, you just don't know how good you got it. It can get a whole lot worse.

Scott Meyers (03:16):

Well, everything's relative. I mean, you still look at the valuations of houses in commercial real estate. You look at the cap rates and NOI in the market really kind of sets the tone. It's just that the model hasn't changed. It's just the cost of capital and you just got to adjust for the numbers is all. It's not as difficult as people think

Ron LeGrand (03:31):

And that's what we've been doing now for 42 years. Adjusted for the numbers.

Scott Meyers (03:34):

Yeah. Well, tell me, I mean this is going back a ways, but what are some of the benefits that you didn't really know would come out of the teaching side that maybe have benefited you in, well, it could be anyway, personal side, business side or how it fed your investing business. What are some of the things that came about as a result of you teaching people that you just didn't anticipate when you began?

Ron LeGrand (03:56):

Well, to be honest, I started teaching just because I enjoyed it. I never dreamed it would become a career and actually I've been doing real estate every year since and still do this very day and been teaching this whole time and I'm a firm believer in multiple income streams and there have been times where one has been better than the other and vice versa throughout this entire 42 year period now, so teaching does provide income for me, but it also, it's still something that I want to do. I'm kind of semi-retired, Scott, I don't know much of anything anymore except read reports and participate in real estate and then participate teaching from here and I sit at home and do a lot of thinking and reading and don't have to be anywhere. In fact, my business has been where I don't have to show up for many, many, many years right now, which is one of the things I try to get across to people. If you have to show up for work every day, then your business sucks. You need to fix your business or go you something worth doing. In fact, I got a book called The Less I Do, the More I Make on Amazon just about that. It's about delegating, which you're no stranger. Cute. You and I go back how many centuries now? I don't know. Long time,

Scott Meyers (05:19):

Ron, my introduction to you was in 1992 when you came and spoke for the central Indiana Real Estate Investors Association and back then you were selling the three package combo in cassettes and videos of the ugly houses, pretty houses and I can't remember the red, the blue and the green is all I remember the packages. That's it. And that's what got me started and bought my first thing of family house, three bedroom, one bath ranch bread and butter and all the things that you said then and the things that you're saying right now just shows that you have definitely been a practitioner as well as an educator. And the less I do, the more I make you said that back in the front of the room back in 1993 and I remember that and so

Ron LeGrand (06:05):

Did

Scott Meyers (06:06):

That is what launched my career in single family and then ultimately getting into multifamily and then where I found myself now is in self storage. So I owe a great deal of the success that I've had to what you've taught.

Ron LeGrand (06:17):

Well, that's what I do. It's what I've been doing for a long time now. That's what you've been doing for a long time as well. So when you started in single family houses, how long did it take you to jump from there to commercial?

Scott Meyers (06:30):

Yeah, we started in single family in 93 and then in 2002 is when I bought my first multifamily, and so we bought a number of those apartment complexes and then decided I didn't like the tenant toilet business and so it was either vacant land or self storage to get rid of the tenants into toilets and trash and chose self storage. And then yeah, we sold off all the houses and apartments after that and went full bore into self storage.

Ron LeGrand (06:56):

Well, I've got a lot of students that are doing residential of course, and I've got some that are doing quite a few doing commercial. People ask me all the time, which one should I do? And the answer is yes,

Scott Meyers (07:09):

Both always.

Ron LeGrand (07:12):

It's a whole lot easier to build cashflow and checks quickly in the single family, but on the other hand, I don't have a hundred units sitting in one place, so both has got their pros and their cons and I've done a lot of commercial in my time, done a lot of development in my time as well, mostly pre 2008 for those who know what happened then and sitting in a commercial building that my own right now doing this podcast. So I do 'em both. I'm they call a transaction engineer. I have many ways to make money in houses and I got many ways to make money in commercial as well.

Scott Meyers (07:45):

Well, I've had the benefit and extremely grateful to share the stage with you at your commercial events and I can see that there's a benefit in teaching people the right way of doing things so that there's less friction in the industry as a result of that. And then there's opportunities for partnerships or for some of our students to be able to wholesale deals to us or it just makes life a little bit easier for us if we're already transacting to teach people the right ways of doing things. And so as people are out there looking for or looking at or they're confused about truly the gurus out there or just the educators and the folks that they can learn from, what are some, tell me some of the things throughout the years that you've seen, which are maybe some gotchas pitfalls and mistakes that people can fall into before they begin following the wrong person.

Ron LeGrand (08:33):

I got a whole book on that too. Scott's called Lessons Learned.

Scott Meyers (08:36):

Yeah,

Ron LeGrand (08:37):

I'm serious on Amazon. It's about that thick and it could be about that thick, but I got tired of writing. I'll tell you a mistake that I see a lot of people making. The biggest mistake as far as I'm concerned is that they use their credit to do real estate deals, residential or commercial and looking back, that's one of the biggest mistakes a lot of people have made to put 'em out of business and there's no reason to use your credit, especially with houses. I catch somebody actually going down, applying for a loan to buy a house. I send six foot eight guy out called Guido with a big stick to smack him upside the head, get their attention back. I buy houses every single month without using credit most of the time without even writing any checks. That's what a lot of people don't believe is real because it sounds too good to be true and the only way they're going to find out is to get involved and get training from the people who know what the heck they're talking about. Which I got to tell you, half the people on the internet do not.

(09:40):

In fact, they lead people into a dark area that they have to climb their way out of because frankly they just haven't been around long enough to learn some of the mistakes that the old guys like me have made in fast and don't want to have to make again. Another one is getting out of your own way. The less I do, the more I make has a whole lot more meaning and it sounds like it does. The whole goal is to put yourself in the position to where the business runs without you and all of mine do. And so you can do whatever you want to do with the rest of your life. I have a full-time person doing my house business. He's got partner slash

(10:22):

I call him full-time. That sure ain't like he works. He works about 10 hours a week out of his own mouth and I think he's lying about half of that and then have a whole team here in global publishing. Again, I just interfere where I see necessary show up when I'm asked, but I still do it. A lot of people don't think I do. I still do a couple of houses a month and I'm always, I've got a group called Commercial Mastermind Group and we have done deals together as a group. I usually put up the money, so I partner with residential and commercials students as well, and I enjoy it. I enjoy it. Still enjoy teaching.

Scott Meyers (11:07):

Yeah, well that's one of those pieces. I was talking with Eddie Speed earlier in the week and you'll see him on the previous episode and asking him similar questions as to why he got into the teaching side of the business because certainly we all know in the beginning when we're starting it, until you get to that place where you can delegate and have a team and teach 'em the process, it's a lot of heavy lifting and there's a lot that goes into the writing of the copy and scripting and the marketing and the videos and everything on this side, and there's certainly more money to be made if you look at it a dollar per hour in real estate in most cycles. As you also mentioned earlier. And he said, I just love to teach. He said, I think God just blessed me with the ability and the desire and the passion to teach people. He said, I just love it. And that's the reason why he still to this day continues to do it when he doesn't have to and we could certainly go out and do nothing or spend time doing real estate deals.

Ron LeGrand (12:05):

I don't know about you, but I find doing nothing extremely boring, extremely boring. I'm just not a guy to sit around and do nothing. I can't handle that. So I'm always doing something even if I have to create that something. And you mentioned changing in times. I've been through six cycles, six downturns in the market in my time, the biggest being 2008, and there wasn't a very single year that went buy. I couldn't buy houses. In fact, there wasn't here. I couldn't buy commercial either. I just don't pursue commercial heavily. My students got to bring me the deals or I don't do it, but that's quite a bit right there. So my worst one was when I started, we were already in a recession and then went into another one in the mid eighties and then another one in the early nineties and I can't even remember anymore. Worst one was 2008 and nothing changed except the market really because I learned a lesson along the way to worst the market gets, the easier my business gets. So I bought houses when we were good times and I bought 'em when they're wearing bad times. I think the good times are coming back.

Scott Meyers (13:16):

Well, I think once again that if you're going to, for the folks out there that are still searching and still looking at who they're going to hitch their wagon to, I think it's important to look around at your mentors, your teachers and just the folks that you grab any information from. And I said this many times to our passive investors, if they're looking at syndicators to invest alongside of with their retirement dollars that the old saying that I heard many years ago is that if you're a private in the army, you would never want to follow a general in of battle unless he walked with a limp. And we pride ourselves on that around here and the fact that we've been through three cycles and Ron you've been through six and having gone through three, you just learn to look down the road a little bit farther. You can see a little bit farther down the road and to kind of know what's happening and coming. What are some of those lessons that either have repeated themselves, that normally show up during a recession or others that were maybe anomalies that people need to keep in mind?

Ron LeGrand (14:14):

Well, as far as single family goes, good news is if people always have to have a place to live no matter what the recession is or it is not, it's always been that way and it always will be that way, and I don't care where you live, there's houses there to make money on and during the recession sometimes right now it's not a very good time to own office buildings. It's always a great time to own self storage and apartments and the things that people have to have during the oh eight recession as far as I can remember, apartments and self-storage take the big hit like houses didn't.

(14:51):

Of course offices did. Then I also don't mind retail, but my favorite would be self storage and apartments, anything that's income producing. One of my biggest mistakes was in 2004 through 2008, I was developing Now nothing wrong with developing except I was developing the wrong stuff. I was developing to sell where if I'd have been developing to rent, I still own a lot of that stuff today. I mean I had 21 different developments going on simultaneously. Every single one of 'em student brought to me and the student was managing this stuff from where they lived. So then oh eight hit September oh eight and just fell all apart. The biggest problem was there no exit strategy for all the stuff that I was developing. Even the housing market dry up instantly overnight and builders went out of business and we got one here in Jacksonville, committed suicide. That was his exit strategy. I didn't prefer that one too much, but

Scott Meyers (15:53):

No, thankfully you didn't.

Ron LeGrand (15:54):

So you got to change with the times

(15:56):

Change with the times. The truth is the requirements for money changes a little bit up and down back and forth and always the requirement for the thing changes based on the market. But everything that I do, I did back then. We probably do it today, we do it a whole lot better with all the technology, especially because AI stuff's gone on, but the actual business itself in a nutshell on a broad scale has not really changed since I started in 1982. A lot of things have, but we still do the same things. We do 'em differently. We do 'em a lot easier today. We got this house business so systemized that people come in, they don't have to spend more than a few hours a week max because everything else is done for 'em. That's the whole point. It took a lot of years to get to that point. So it's never been easier to do houses than it is right now. And I mean that sincerely.

Scott Meyers (16:50):

Same here. I can't say that for all commercial because I stick to my corner here of self storage, but it is a simple predictable business model and we've created a process that is replicatable and we're doing it the same that we have, again, not as many years, but I've been at the storage game for 19 years going on 20, and the underwriting is the same. We've gotten better at it. We tweaked a little bit here and there, but the only thing that has changed, as you said, is the market. And really the market means the cost of capital and the underwriting still dictates whether you move forward or not. And we got our no-go and we got our goes and those marks are just based upon the profit and the yield and everything else based upon our cost of capital. But at the end of the day, I think everybody makes it real complicated. Like you said, I didn't invest when interest rates, I went and started when they were 16, 18%, but I started when they were eight and same thing, we got spoiled that they were at four, but a deal's a deal, you just put the cost of capital in. It's not the same. It is. It's just a math equation.

Ron LeGrand (17:46):

Always math, always math.

Scott Meyers (17:49):

So Ron, as you're investing but then also still teaching from your home there in the commercial building that you own, what are you looking at as we head into this next economic cycle, and I don't even want to say into a recession or on the upswing of it because that's always up for debate as to what kind of an economy that we're in right now, but looking forward to let's say 20 25, 20 26, what are you telling your folks? What are you teaching folks and what should they be looking out for?

Ron LeGrand (18:18):

The housing market is not going to go down. It's going to go up. We have a serious shortage of housing in this country. Now you add that to the election where things are going to totally drastically change and I don't see anything but growth going forward. I'm not an economist. I'm certainly no expert at that, but I am an old guy and all these cycles, you can see the triggers coming. Coach Schneider has saw it coming long before September oh eight though when crash happened. I've talked to a lot of people that knew it was coming now you didn't know event.

Scott Meyers (18:55):

Yeah, go figure.

Ron LeGrand (18:57):

But we just have to fight through it and keep surviving it. That's what makes the difference between the people that are doing well and the people that are complaining why they're not doing well, can't quit.

Scott Meyers (19:09):

So you're big on the housing side as you mentioned, your commercial stuff, you kind of dabble or when people bring things to you. Anything else that is going to be different maybe about this next cycle that you're keeping an ear to the ground and just keeping an eye on right now?

Ron LeGrand (19:23):

Well, I think the inflation's going to drop quickly and I think the interest rates are going to drop as well. Scott, I can remember a time back in 1983 when I was sitting in a restaurant with a friend and I made the statement, I wonder if we're ever going to get down to 10% interest rate again. That's funny. Now it wasn't funny back

(19:44):

Then. So one thing I know nothing's going to stay the same, and you got to be able to make money in any economy because take care of your house. You don't have to worry about the White House.

Scott Meyers (19:57):

Well Ron, one last question I want to ask of you that I probably can't ask of too many people, and that is I think sometimes I have this, I don't know if it's a healthy paranoia or an unhealthy fear that the education business, I have two businesses I educate and I don't make a living at that. It does provide avenues to invest, but the investing side of the business is obviously those are where the bigger checks are, but I had this fear that eventually people are going to stop or at least not as much consume education, that they're going to believe that they can type something into chat GBT and it's going to spit out the answer forum. But as I look at this, I think the difference is that guys like you and I, we care about people and we care about educating them, whereas AI and some of the other folks that are out there that we mentioned that are just putting out videos to get them to invest in their projects or for whatever reasons for people to be able to sift through all that, how do they go about that? How do they pick a person? How do they pick an organization to hitch their wagon to where that they can? What are some of the signs that they need to be looking for before they pick a mentor that they can truly follow?

Ron LeGrand (21:07):

They need to pick a mentor who has actually done what he or she is trying to mentor others to do and follow. The fellow who follows his dreams means, like I say, in Texas, they're tall hat, no cattle. It is sometimes hard to pick out the people that are actually doing it because they are so good at talking about it. And that's one of the problems I have with all the new rules online today. Sometimes when I'm force myself to watch some of that, I said to myself, oh my God, what are they talking about? They're going to get people in trouble just like this bur thing. You know what that bur thing is, right? Yeah.

Scott Meyers (21:52):

BRRR. Oh, yeah,

Ron LeGrand (21:54):

I'm totally, totally against that. Number one, buy no problem with that. Number two, rehab, no problem with that. Number three, rent. I have a problem with that because I don't rent houses. I at least purchase them. I had never rent a house. I at least purchased it. That means I get thousands up front and they do all the repairs and then rent and then refinance. That one's the one I have the most problem with right there because I've seen so many people go into bankruptcy or worse because here's what happens. They go down to the bank and they borrow an 80% loan and they spend the money that they get out of it in about 20 minutes and they sign on a 30 year debt and they forget that that house is going to want some of that money back after they spent it and they can't think past next Thursday. And they get yourself in trouble little by little. It's a domino effect. Houses start needing repairs, they can't handle it, and there's only so many times you're going to go down and refinance the house where are they're going to cut you off of the knees anyway. So some people think the more you borrow the more you can borrow. And that is absolutely not the case in a single family house business anyway.

(23:06):

And repeat, yeah, repeat that. Keep repeating that pretty soon you'll be need add a B for bankruptcy in that formula somewhere

Scott Meyers (23:13):

And band the backend. Yeah, I would agree. Acute acronyms, maybe salesy and people get it, and it may sound simple, but at the end of the day, once again, I think it goes back to the fact that you need to follow a general Linda Battle that walks with a limp that isn't going to talk about those types of things and in those senses and understands because they got the scar tissue to prove it and to be able to learn from that,

Ron LeGrand (23:39):

That experience somebody came by, you have to rent it from others until you get it. I'm going to have surgery. I don't want some kid just out of college cutting me open. I want some old guy doing it 5,000 times before he gets to practice on me.

Scott Meyers (23:56):

It's good in medicine and that's good in real estate as well because both of 'em have grave consequences if you don't follow the person that has the most experience. So I appreciate that.

Ron LeGrand (24:05):

Yeah, your business, like my business ain't near as hard as it looks for me outside. It just isn't. I'll give you an example. Week before last, for example, I bought a house, it's worth five and a quarter. It's in excellent shape. I paid 440 through it, 100% owner financing, zero down. I did pay $5,000 in closing costs, so I got almost a hundred thousand dollars equity there. I bought it, which is exactly what they told me they wanted. And that thing will keep producing money for me for years and years and years and years. We're getting ready to put a tenant buyer in it, and I'm not going to put one in it until I collect $50,000 of their money as a non-refundable option deposit. And it gets credited when they buy, they lose it. If they don't, there's going to be almost a thousand dollars a month cashflow on that property. All the repairs are done by the tenant buyer over the years that they're in the house. The debt pay down on that thing is a benefit. Nobody looks at the depreciation on that house, cuts down on the taxes, and then the defaulted deposits, believe it or not, people walk away from those deposits all day long. In other words, that's a golden goose.

(25:17):

It keeps laying golden eggs for years and years to come, like yourself Stories does, and that's just part of the business. The other part is all the junkers, everybody's out there looking for the junkers that, okay, we wholesale houses, we rehab retail houses, but nowhere near as many as I used to, and I don't even want to do any rehabbing and retailing more than we're doing. So we get cash from that, but we got to give the government a big chunk of it. The terms business, we don't give the government anything until we cash out. And I got three ways that we can cash out a property without paying any taxes legally anyway. So it's a business worth learning, but the hard part is getting people's attention as to how valuable it is. And I'm not going to say it's not complicated in the beginning, it's complicated just like self story than anything else you buy. But you got to ask yourself, what are you going to do if you don't make a move and do something that can set you up for the rest of your life? Because most of society swap hours for dollars day in and day out. Same in their own businesses to make a living.

(26:27):

I learned something from the best line soap many, many years ago. If you ever want to get rich first, you got to put yourself in a position that will allow it. I would suggest that your listeners keep that in mind. Most of the things people do will never allow it.

Scott Meyers (26:43):

I agree 100%. And Ron, this brings me back. I mean, just things that you've been saying are just obviously the reasons for your success. And without knowing how much influence you've had on me, I just recognize it again because I remember once again, you stating that these are the reasons why we love real estate. And this is something that comes out of my mop all the time as we're teaching folks, because it appreciates, you can depreciate it, you can borrow money in your case, as you said, not from the bank, but you can borrow it and let the seller be your bank. They can pay down the basis of it in the meantime. And then depending on how you exit, you can exit. Well, from a tax standpoint, there's so many advantages, and I think I may butcher your words, but you said, if there's any other investment out there that beats real estate, then let me know and I'll be the first in line to invest in it. And that has resonated with me for 25 years now. Well, 30 years that I've been investing in real estate, period. And that's because it's true.

Ron LeGrand (27:46):

It's true. Now there's a lot of benefits to real estate, but there's a lot of benefits to other things like growing your own business and selling it off. But anybody can do real estate, anybody that really wants to, it's just especially as systemized that it is right now, honestly. So it's just hard to get people's attention to show 'em that, and that's why we're doing this.

Scott Meyers (28:09):

Well, that's because it looks like work. You got to show up in overalls and be willing to dig in and do some of the heavy lifting up front. And I think that's what keeps us some folks from not doing it in the first place.

Ron LeGrand (28:19):

Well, one thing we got with houses, Scott, is that I've never seen a business with such small, pathetic overhead and such huge high transaction value checks on the other side. That's not normal. Most businesses in small profit on whatever their service or profit product that they're selling. I know I had restaurants that was six restaurants. My last one cost a hundred thousand dollars a month just to keep the doors open. There were months I didn't gross a hundred grand. So guess where that came from?

Scott Meyers (28:48):

Well, they always said, if you want to make a million in the restaurant business, you start with 2 million. Right? And I'm sure that's lived that. Yeah,

Ron LeGrand (28:57):

Pretty much correct. I lived that.

Scott Meyers (28:59):

Well, Ron, I want to be very respectful of your time. I know we had a short time together and I appreciate you coming along and being a part of this series because you are the godfather of teaching people how to invest in real estate. And my life has been forever changed and so has My Family Tree as a result of you giving back and caring about folks and traveling around and working as hard as you do and did to continue to teach people the right ways of doing things. And so we owe you a debt of gratitude. The entire industry, anybody that has learned from you does. And so I just want to personally thank you.

Ron LeGrand (29:30):

My pleasure. It's what we do. By the way, if you want to learn what we call a terms business, everybody wants to wholesale and rehab houses, trust me, the terms business is a whole lot more profitable. Go to ronlegrand.com/terms and there's an hour and a half webinar on there where I go through step by step on how we do these deals like I just described, Ron LeGrand, that's L-E-G-R-A-N D.com/terms.

Scott Meyers (30:01):

Anything

Ron LeGrand (30:02):

Else you want to know?

Scott Meyers (30:03):

No, that is a perfect segue leaning into the times that we're in right now because we are, we're looking at terms, we're looking at seller financing and the things that you just mentioned, and now is the perfect time to do that. So I appreciate you offering that as well. We will include that in the show notes. And once again, Ron, I thank you for your time. I look forward to being in the same room with you again, hopefully sometime again soon.

Ron LeGrand (30:23):

Alright, appreciate you. I'll be interviewing you next.

Scott Meyers (30:25):

Alright, appreciate you. Thanks Ron.

Announcer (30:31):

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